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Subject:What If? LoTR.
Time:02:38 pm
What if Merry and Pippin weren't allowed to join the Fellowship?

Imagine that all other canon factors are still in place. Answer with whatever you think might have happened, but try not to carry it out too far -- leave some room for someone to add on. For example, Bob could write "Elrond would have a heart attack and die" and Joe could add "And then Arwen would be free to marry Aragorn whenever." If you don't agree with what someone else thought would be the outcome, post your own idea -- if you think Gandalf is the one who'll have a heart attack, take advantage of the way the LJ comment system works and start a new branch of that train of thought.
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camwyn
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Time:2004-07-27 12:32 pm (UTC)
Well, given Elrond's penchant for numerological symbolism, probably a pair of other Elves would've been sent along instead. Glorfindel, most likely, though I'm not sure whot he other would've been.
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tatooine
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Time:2004-07-27 12:45 pm (UTC)
Glorfindel, definitely, but I think the dwarves would want one of the extra spaces so they'd be as involved as the elves. Having Gloin, Gimli's dad, go would be good -- and I don't think he'd have been considered too old, given that he was of adventuring age in The Hobbit and dwarves seem to age fairly slowly given how old Thorin was during the Smaug quest...
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camwyn
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Time:2004-07-27 01:00 pm (UTC)
True, there would have been some argument from the Naugrim...

Meanwhile, Merry and Pippin have to be dealt with. They stay at Rivendell long enough to see their friends off, of course, but what becomes of them after that I'm not sure. Did Elrond have someone he could spare to get them back to the Shire, or would they have stuck in Rivendell? I have a feeling probably the latter.
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cactus_wren
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Time:2004-07-27 01:14 pm (UTC)
And really, would Merry and Pippin have stayed put? I don't see them just simply accepting the order to remain in Rivendell or return to the Shire.
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tatooine
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Time:2004-07-27 01:19 pm (UTC)
It's entirely probable that they might have run after the Now-With-Extra-Elf!Fellowship.

... they probably would have gotten lost, though.
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silverhill
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Time:2004-07-27 02:53 pm (UTC)
I'm lacking my book at the moment, but I remember that

- Elrond was thinking of sending two others from his own house.
- Elrond was hoping at least one of the hobbits would go back to the Shire to warn the hobbits.
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tatooine
Link:(Link)
Time:2004-07-27 03:50 pm (UTC)
Elladan and Elrohir go on the Quest?
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valueofaloonie
Subject:OT - On the existence of Merry and Pippin
Link:(Link)
Time:2004-07-27 01:37 pm (UTC)
I'm currently reading 'The Return of the Shadow' (The History of Middle Earth, book 6), and apparently Merry and Pippin were rather late additions to the canon of LOTR, and weren't even thought of/created in the fashion that we know them now by Tolkien until the 4th or 5th rewrite of FOTR. I'm only on chapter 3, but so far I've learned that:

- the original hero of the story was one Bingo Bolger-Baggins, a cousin of Bilbo.
- Bingo journeys to Rivendell without ever knowing anything of the history of the ring. He originally undertakes his journey because he is out of money, and has some vague desire to see the world.
- Bingo journeys with two hobbits named Odo and Frodo, and they plan to meet up with another hobbit named Marmaduke near Buckland. Marmaduke eventually becomes Merry, at least in name. No mention of Sam or Pippin at this point.
- Aragorn's character didn't originally exist. The person the various hobbits meet in Bree is a hobbit who goes by the name of Trotter, who is quite dangerous. His real name? Peregrin.

It's a fascinating read so far, and positively bursting with interesting AU possibilities.
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tatooine
Subject:Re: OT - On the existence of Merry and Pippin
Link:(Link)
Time:2004-07-27 04:19 pm (UTC)
I vaguely remember that -- the fact that Merry and Pippin in their printed incarnations are such late additions makes the "well, what if they weren't there?" question all the more interesting to me.
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zakkati
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Time:2004-07-27 02:07 pm (UTC)
Without Merry and Pippin, Sam and Frodo would not have got away. They
would have been captured by the Uruks instead of their brave little pals.

But without Pippin, Gandalf would have probably come through Moria in one piece. No Merry and Pippin, then no Gandalf the White. How would Gandalf the Grey have coped at Minas Tirith? Or anywhere else for that matter? This makes my brain ache!
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shieldmaidenjen
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Time:2004-07-27 04:06 pm (UTC)
Without Merry and Pippin, Sam and Frodo would not have got away. They
would have been captured by the Uruks instead of their brave little pals.


Definitely. Even if Elrond had assigned the two other Fellowship members, whatever race(s) they might be, and assuming that Gandalf had still somehow fallen in Moria (something that is very possible, even without Pippin), Boromir would have still have been corrupted by the Ring and this would split the Fellowship. Without Merry and Pippin to confuse the orcs, Frodo and Sam would most likely have been captured. Then it is possible that Grishnakh might have taken the Ring for himself or for Sauron, since Frodo or Sam probably wouldn't have handled the situation the way Pippin and Merry did. The entire quest would be in ruins.

Speaking of which, without Merry and his sword, Eowyn wouldn't have been able to slay the Witch King. But that's a thread to be handled as we go along, I suppose.
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tatooine
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Time:2004-07-27 04:17 pm (UTC)
Well, don't you think the whole Uruk-hai vs. Mordor-orc thing might have played out more or less the same? So far as I remember, none of the orcs searched Merry or Pippin for the Ring (we can assume that Frodo would have been intelligent enough to hide it away). Remember: Frodo didn't have Sam with him when Merry and Pippin distract the orcs. (At least... that's what I remember. Correct me if I'm using bad movie canon.) So... the orcs would have Frodo and Frodo would have the Ring. What then?

As for the rest of the Fellowship (Aragorn, corrupted!Boromir, Sam, Gandalf, Legolas, Gimli, and two other competent warriors, presumably), I doubt they'd have seen the orcs carrying Frodo off. I imagine that Sam would very much want to go after Frodo, but wouldn't have a lead, and Boromir would press to get to Minas Tirith and, having no better destination, that's probably where the Three-now-Eight Hunters would go.
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supersaiyaginny
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Time:2004-07-28 03:49 am (UTC)
Keeping with canon that Boromir is seduced by the One Ring in Amon Hen. He would still have his horn, which with he used to call for help. There is a very good chance that someone would have seen the orcs carry off Frodo.

Now, straying into AU, Boromir survives the battle.

Perhaps the Fellowship would have split here. Those who wanted to go after Frodo and the Ring would go (likely with Aragorn) and those who wanted to head for Minas Tirith would go with Boromir.
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supersaiyaginny
Link:(Link)
Time:2004-07-28 03:52 am (UTC)
Oh, scrolling down revealed a plothole. Frodo was invisible. So, in light of this, I propose that the Ring betrays (or simply abandons?) Frodo, slipping off at the most inopportune time.
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silverhill
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Time:2004-07-27 04:43 pm (UTC)
Well, would Frodo and Sam have been captured? Frodo was invisible at the time, and Sam was in a different area than the Orcs (I believe). So they probably weren't in immediate danger of being caught by Orcs.

It's possible that Sam could be captured and Frodo left on his own. Who knows how long Frodo would've lasted without Sam. If he didn't die in the Emyn Muil, at the very least he would've been eaten by Shelob.

Or Frodo and Sam escape and do their bit as usual. But with no Merry and Pippin to capture...
- Merry and Pippin don't meet up with Treebeard and the Ents
- The Three Hunters don't take off to look for Merry and Pippin and don't meet up with the Rohirrim
Therefore... The Battle of the Hornburg (without Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli and the Huorns) goes very differently. And Saruman stays in power.
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tatooine
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Time:2004-07-27 04:48 pm (UTC)
Definitely. Without Aragorn and company, wasn't Theoden just have stayed at Edoras to be attacked? Then Rohan would fall, and Rohan wouldn't have been able to help Gondor.

And if Aragorn hadn't gone across Rohan, he wouldn't have taken the Paths of the Dead...
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shieldmaidenjen
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Time:2004-07-27 06:14 pm (UTC)
Ah, you're right! In my rush to think about all of the possible events that could have happened had Frodo been in Merry/Pippin's place, I completely forgot that he was invisible. So everything I basically said wouldn't have happened at all. I'm glad you reminded me of this major fact. ;)

It is very possible that Sam would have been captured however, since Saruman's orders were to kill all but NOT the halflings; they are to be brought back ALIVE as soon as possible. And the Uruk-Hai truly might have found him - without Merry and Pippin, who took off with Sam to find Frodo, the Uruks very well might have searched him out. Or not.

At any rate, whether Sam was captured or was protected by the Fellowship (and still unable to catch his master), Frodo really would have been screwed. Who knows what might have killed or captured him - there are so many possibilities with this.
If Sam was captured and taken across Rohan, perhaps things would have gone similarly to the events that took place with Merry and Pippin; they meet the Rohirrim, Gandalf the White, and go to Edoras, Battle of the Hornburg, etc. But it wouldn't really matter since Frodo couldn't make the quest to destroy the Ring by himself and all would be doomed anyway.

And the if Sam did escaped, everything that you said would (or wouldn't, rather) happen. Saruman would stay in power. Theoden King would never be restored. Rohan wouldn't come to help Gondor. Rohan would become totally taken over by Uruks without The Battle of Helm's Deep. and then Saruman could attack Minas Tirith from the west while Sauron did so from the east. And the rest of the company would most likely have gone on with Aragorn to Minas Tirith, only to be destroyed by the two large forces even if the Ring was eventually destroyed by Frodo.
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merrysue
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Time:2004-07-27 06:04 pm (UTC)
Hmm, what else...we also now have no involvement of Saruman's whatchamacallit seeing-stone thing (sorry..forgot name...) which I suppose is irrelevant since Rohan has already been conquered and cannot come to Gondor's aid.
Also, perhaps just because most of the good ideas are already used up ;) there are some less specific possibilities. How would Frodo's behavior have changed with only one other Hobbit around? Would they have decided to continue their original plan and gone through the mountains if they only had two hobbits to worry about?
Oh, and wasn't *Merry* actually the one who solved the riddle of the door? (not in the movie, the book I mean).

And...um...well, that's all for now.
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merrysue
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Time:2004-07-27 06:06 pm (UTC)
Oh, and one more :) Assuming they got past *all* the other problems and got towards the original end, somehow...
...Who would have suspected Gollum? And who would Gollum get to call names?
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shieldmaidenjen
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Time:2004-07-27 06:14 pm (UTC)
Oh, and wasn't *Merry* actually the one who solved the riddle of the door? (not in the movie, the book I mean).

I think it was Gandalf. It just took him a while. ;)
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supersaiyaginny
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Time:2004-07-28 04:00 am (UTC)
Yep, it sure was Gandalf. He just stood up and said, "Mellon!" An accidental wave of his staff and *poof* Thousand of mellons appeared and the Fellowship was delayed by a fruit fest.
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dr_xxxxx
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Time:2004-07-29 07:35 am (UTC)
Hmmm.. Well.. If Pippin hadn't have talked to Sauron in the Palantir, then Sauron most likely wouldn't have risked it and sent ALL his forces to attack Minas Tirith; Instead, he would have fortified his defenses around Mt. Doom, and all possible entrances to Mordor, making it practically impossible for Frodo (And possibly Sam, depending on the circumstances) to destroy the ring.
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